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Interesting discussion here with someone who appears reasonable. I appreciate that. Sultana was probably not like your wife, especially since she had lived in Canada for an extended period. Back in those days, Canadians (and I know this from many years in Toronto) were just as apt to leave their doors unlocked as they were to lock them. It may have been by habit that she didn’t keep the doors locked.
We don’t know about screams. We do know that the neighbors heard thumping sounds at the time the boys were at the movie theater. Since Sultana may have been surprised, she might not have been able to scream but to look with horror and panic at her attacker. In nightmares, we sometimes try to scream but cannot. I would say that this killing was nightmarish. Tariq Rafay was in bed when he was attacked and would likely have been asleep. I think your argument here is thin.

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REASON ONE: No hard or scientifically gathered evidence ties them to the crime.

You wrote “Showering would not be sufficient” Period. Full stop.

Hi Chris,
I’m not sure of the timing with the neighbors, as to when exactly they were questioned. For us, the most significant fact is that Marc Seidel, one of the two neighbors questioned about the thumping noise, was manipulated into believing that he may have been wrong about the time. The other neighbor never changed her story about the timing of the killings. Subsequently, Seidel sent an e-mail that re-instated his original testimony about the timing; if the neighbors were correct on this then the alibi was irrefutable. That never came out in the trial. But do not underestimate the degree of selectivity and pressure that can be applied by police and prosecutors so that they can tie up the loose ends of their cases. With Seidel, they created a hole in the case that the jury was predisposed to believe.

As for the weakness of the circumstantial evidence:

I also don’t get why Sebastian’s hair in the shower is not challenged by more common sense. Seems logical his hair was in there given he had stayed there 4 a few days, but there is a notion that once the killer had a shower, no previous hairs would still exist in the shower. Why not? Lots of ppl have hairs that clog in a shower,, or could get stuck on a wet surface. Seems completely illogical that ‘it must have been the killers hair’. Any hair could be in a shower for weeks, even with a shower that’s frequently used.

I would say from my studies of this case that the evidence is overwhelming that they are innocent.

Hi KenWas Atif’s hair or any of his DNA found in the shower?

After watching the show and doing some reading, I have to say I totally believe these 2 men did this crime.
The 911 call specified a break in, not murders and a still alive person in critical condition needing help.
The teens know what time dad and sister go to bed, an early time for a hitman to assume they would be soundly sleeping and especially since the mom was still up doing things. Especially if the hitman’s only weapon to kill 3-4 people was a single baseball bat.
Then the idea of the teens going to a nightclub minutes before it would close is bizarre unless they needed to show they were still out and about at 2 am prior to returning to the home.
If a professional group was staging a break in, robbery, they certainly would not take tiny items like a VCR and Walkman and what person in shock over finding his family murdered in that fashion would even notice those 2 items missing or walk around that scene looking for missing items especially while his beloved sister was still alive and needing medical attention?
Who would walk in on the mother they so loved and not check to see if she was alive if her body was facing down and get blood all over-themselves?
Also what hitman would leave anyone alive and stop to shower with his bat before heading out of the home especially one who was aware there was another son in the family who could return anytime?
Was this hitman/robber supposed to have come in the home barefoot, leaving no shoe or even foot prints blood stained marks outside the home or in the home?
Who the Hell washes only 2 pairs of underwear in a washing machine load that also happen to be the 2 boys convicted of this crime?
If you are looking for the other person in the room the dad died in, perhaps it was his son, who wanted to see this man bludgeoned, and his underwear got blood splattered at that time, or just in case, were thrown in with Sebastian’s.
The dad, who was sleeping, got the worse beating for some reason.
Neither of these 2 teens looked at all upset at any time about this horrific crime and Atif only showed any remorse at his sentencing when trying to act innocent but seemed to forget he also lost a sister (he “loved”), as he only discussed the loss of his parents.
These two appear to both be psychopathic and narcissistic.

Spot on Jill! you’ve convinced me

Some of what you say about them is true, Shir. Sadly, that is why they were convicted. They behaved arrogantly and obnoxiously, before and after the murders. But, if you really are a psychologist, your conclusions are surprisingly inconsistent. Why would they feel remorse if they were innocent of the crime? Renting movies when you are stuck in a motel room for days is not terribly criminal or heartless. Maybe a bit escapist, no? The frivolous use of the insurance money indicates a lack of judgment but what do adolescents generally do with a pocketful of money?

We can’t say “I think” or “I guess”.

3. You’re trying to stage a break in? No one breaks in murders 3 people and then takes a walkman and VCR in the hopes of convincing authorities wrong place, wrong time. You wouldn’t stay to murder 3 people if you just came for some merchandise – And then stick around to shower.

All they have in this case is the confession.

4. 2 pairs of underwear freshly washed??? No one does an entire load of laundry for 2 pairs of underwear. This seems like one of their mistakes.